Fresh Growth
Fresh Growth
Maud Powell: Navigating Climate Stress and Grief
In this conversation, Maud Powell, Wolf Gulch Farm and Oregon State University shares her journey as a farmer and the challenges she faced due to a changing climate and lack of water. She and her husband Tom realized “we can’t really farm here anymore.”
The leaving of one piece of land and starting over on another led to her exploration of climate grief. She discusses the agrarian imperative (farmers compelled to continue growing food even amid strong challenges), the emotional toll of farming in a changing climate, and the importance of community support.
At Oregon State University, Maud organizes workshops and trainings that address climate stress and grief, helping producers recognize and cope with their emotions. She highlights the differences between climate grief and other types of grief, and the significance of community rituals in processing loss. The conversation concludes with practical steps for managing climate emotions and fostering resilience among farmers.
Her team interviewed 50 farmers and 100% of them said they are experiencing some level of climate stress and or climate grief. So, they're all experiencing it, but they don't have a name for it. The workshops validate and give people words and names for what they're experiencing.
Find more information and tools on Oregon State University's website.
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Hello and welcome to Season 5 of Fresh Growth, a podcast by the Western SARE Program at Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education. I'm your host, Steve Elliott, alongside co-host Stacey Clary. Thanks for listening for the past four seasons, and we're excited to sit down with more innovative producers this year. Just for background, Western SARE is funded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's National Institute of Food and Agriculture. We promote sustainable farming and ranching across the American West through research, education, and communication efforts like this podcast. Fresh Growth highlights producers and agricultural professionals from around the West who are embracing new ways of farming and ranching. They'll tell us about their experiences adopting more sustainable practices and the challenges and benefits they've seen. Today's guest is Maude Powell, who, with her husband Tom, owns Wolf Gulch Farm in Oregon. Maude is also an associate professor and small farm advisor at Oregon State University. Maude, welcome, and thanks for sitting down with us.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so
SPEAKER_03:much for having me. Hi, Maude. It's great to talk with you. I've certainly heard about your farm, but if you can let us know a little bit more about Wolf Gulch Farm, you know, the location, the climate, and when did you and Tom get started?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so Tom and I spent the summers of 1996 and 1997 working on other people's farms, first in India, where we learned to farm in Ladakh on the Tibetan Plateau and really caught the farming bug, just loved the lifestyle, loved the philosophy, loved being able to feed the community, and came home and interned on a couple of farms in Southern Oregon where I had family. And then we bought Wolf Gulch in the summer of 1998 with my sister. My mom helped us. It was kind of an extended family affair. And we started growing in earnest in 1999. The farm is in the Little Applegate Valley, which is in the southwest corner of Oregon. And we... We started just growing produce, kind of just trying to grow everything and going to growers markets. And then really liked the idea of the CSA, the community supported agriculture model, where we weren't standing at farmer's markets as much selling produce, but actually doing the subscription model. So we did that for about 18 years. We ended up being the... the organizers for the Siskiyou Sustainable Cooperative, which was a marketing cooperative of eight certified organic farms in Southern Oregon. So we had a CSA that got up to about 300 members, and then we're also selling some to the local schools and other institutions. But gradually over the years, the property, we realized just when we first bought it in 1998, There had been a really wet period here. There was a huge flood in Southern Oregon in 1997. So there was a lot of water on the landscape. And then within a few years, we got into a drought cycle and realized there really wasn't as much water in Wolf Gulch as we had expected. So we started to switch over a little bit toward growing seeds. Southern Oregon is a great region for growing seeds. for growing seed crops, vegetable and flower seeds in particular, because we have this very dry climate. And so we have, there's not a lot of ambient moisture in the fall and the late summer. So the seeds really have an opportunity to dry down and we tend to have really good germination rates and really good yields. So we had a couple of other farmer friends that were growing seeds. So we started growing seed crops And then as our landscape became drier, we gradually moved more and more into seeds. So by 2018, we were growing exclusively seed crops. We'd stopped doing CSAs altogether. Yeah, and just a note about our farm. We had designed it using permaculture practices. And then as the climate became droughtier, We employed all kinds of different strategies for keeping as much water on the land as possible. So using the key line plow system, if people are familiar with the key line system out of Australia and the permaculture movement, we converted all of our irrigation to drip tape. It was all gravity fed. So we had about three to four acres of annuals and perennials just exclusively on drip tape. And then we were conserving all of the winter rainwater, collecting it from our roofs into tanks. And then we had three ponds. You'll notice I'm starting to use past tense a little bit because we actually did end up moving a year ago because the creek completely dried up in 2017. And then in 2021... we had this heat dome in the Northwest that many people remember. And for us on our property and in Southern Oregon, I believe we had 17 days where the high temperature never got below one Oh, uh, was it one 10, I think. Um, and that was really unseasonable for us. I mean, people experienced it all over, but at that point, you know, we were trying to just triage and keep, the crops alive. It was late June, and we kind of turned to each other and realized, like, we can't really farm here anymore, which is what kind of brought me into all this work around climate stress and grief.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, that's a 20-year microcosm of what's happening, if you bought it in 98 and sort of, well, 30 years, I guess. I can't do math.
SPEAKER_00:I usually say 20. We were there for 25, so yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, going back to even the decision to switch over to seed crops, had you exhausted, I mean, in your minds at least, all the practical ways to keep growing fresh market crops?
SPEAKER_00:There were a number of factors that went into us transitioning more to seed crops, particularly We really enjoy the process of looking at genetics and working with the seed companies and restoring varieties, maintaining varieties. It also meant that we didn't have to do as much marketing throughout the season, so we really liked that part of it. But in the end, it really did come down to the fact that with seed crops, you don't have to irrigate after, depending on the crop, sometime in August or early September.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:when we were running out of water. So that irrigation was a big part of it. We had some really stressful years where we got into September and October and we're having really hot days and keeping the fresh market produce alive was very difficult. So it was kind of balancing a number of factors, but in the end it was way less stressful to grow the seed crops because of their irrigation needs.
UNKNOWN:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It sounds to me that every year you were facing drought, a changing climate, you adapted. And then that final year with that heat dump, you said you turned to each other and said, this isn't working. Does it feel like it was a gradual decision or just finally at that very end, we cannot do this anymore? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think, like you said, we continue to adapt. I work at OSU Extension. So I was actually working on a drought module. So I was working on how to educate farmers to make their farms more drought resilient. And so we kind of had all the latest information. We were attending conferences. We were doing our due diligence in terms of professional development as farmers. And, and, you know, I think once the creek dried up, that was certainly a significant moment for us. But I think we just believed we could, if we kept doing the right thing, we could stay. And yeah, the, the heat dome. was such a gut punch. And I think because of when it fell, which was late June, early July, it was kind of like, well, this is June and July. What is August going to look like in terms of heat? And it just became too stressful. We were pumping water out of our lower pond up to our upper pond. At one point, we actually had to start just buying truckloads of water from town I remember hearing the sound of the trucks rumbling up our driveway and just thinking, I cannot believe we have to do this. It was really devastating. It still makes me cry when I talk about it because we had done so much to stay and we were so committed to that property. We'd raised our kids there. Our whole lives were based around... that place. And we really felt, you know, as young idealists wanting to farm and feed our community and take care of land, we felt like it was so important to commit to a piece of land and stay there. So it was, yeah, it was very painful, very painful decision.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I can, I can only imagine. Yeah. When you were going through all this and having all those really intense feelings, had you heard the term climate grief before? Or is that something that you came to as you were processing everything that you were going through?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I had heard the term. I was familiar with Joanna Macy's work. So I was familiar with the term ecological distress, which is just kind of another name for climate grief. Yeah. there's lots of terms out there and people prefer some over others. And we've actually done some work with farmers to figure out which terms are kind of the most accessible for them as we do this work. So I was vaguely familiar with them, but then to experience it ourselves and kind of see In myself, I noticed that I wasn't reaching out to friends as much. I was isolating. It was hard to sleep. It was hard to eat. I was distracted. Tom and I were fighting, which isn't really typical in our relationship. He was drinking more. I started to see like, oh, there's all these behaviors and kind of emotional... implications of this happening. I really wanted to get help. I wanted to figure out how to manage this. I'm the type of person that's proactive. I go out and try to figure out how to address issues as they come up. I did some internet research and found Joanna Macy's work, The Work That Reconnects, which, as I mentioned, addresses ecological distress. I signed up for a I think an eight week online program that fall and just found the work to be incredibly powerful. I think, you know, part of it is that in this day and age there's, there is so much isolation and these feelings are really intense. I mean, we're all either in LA or we're watching images of LA right now and it's terrifying. It's our worst nightmare. Yeah. And this is happening regularly. You know, just a few months ago, we were watching North Carolina and the Southeast. And there's a million examples. Those are two very dramatic ones just in our very recent memory. But these feelings are, they're so large in a lot of cases that we tend to want to numb out or distract ourselves or else we kind of just watch in horror. actually having a venue to talk about some of the feelings to feel normalized was incredibly helpful. And just the amount of empathy and compassion people had for this kind of agonizing decision that we had ahead of us. Not only were we leaving this property, but we were having to make a decision about whether or not to leave Southern Oregon, where I've had a almost 20-year career at Extension. We have all of our closest friends, deep roots in the community. And so we actually spent about a year considering moving to other areas. We ended up deciding to stay because the connections that we have were so strong here. But there was that sort of agonizing process of figuring out what our next step was.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And you say it's isolating. I mean, the anxiety itself of what's happening here and what can we do about it. And then the idea of you have to leave and then everybody's leaving because your neighbors can't part either. I mean, so the isolation gets worse. Yeah. In the course you took, were most of the other students, were there other students, and were they also sort of in the same, going through the same experience you were? I
SPEAKER_00:think I was the only farmer in the group that was dealing kind of so directly with climate change impacting the course of my life, where I lived, you know, my work, my family, all these things. So, you know, a lot of people were working directly either had a strong connection with the land or their work related to it. So they were working in the environmental field in some capacity or other. Or a lot of people, I remember, were working with kids. And all the research that's coming out is just showing the amount of anxiety and anxiety grief among children around the climate is so high. So a lot of them were educators who were trying to figure out how to deal with their own grief so they could really support these children that they work with every day.
SPEAKER_03:You had to make the really hard decision to leave, but you didn't leave farming. And how is continuing to farm, how does that feel now for you?
SPEAKER_00:It's wonderful. Tom does most of the farming, and he just loves to farm. One of the pieces that I talk about a lot in the workshops I lead now on climate stress and grief is this concept of the agrarian imperative, which many people don't know about. It was a term coined by Michael Rossman, I believe, in 2010. He's a agricultural psychologist in the Midwest. And he came up with this theory that people who farm have this imperative, this drive to steward land and to grow food and fiber. And he actually posited that there was like a genetic component that this was a trait that had been passed down But so what the theory says is that people will actually overcome incredible amounts of stress. They'll take sort of inordinate risks in order to keep growing food. And, you know, it's just so interesting because I, you know, I learned about it and I talked to Tom about it and he said, oh, yeah, I absolutely feel that way. I will grow food. food until the day I die, no matter what. And as I talk to farmers in these classes, you know, I'll describe the agrarian imperative and I start to see heads nod and people saying, yes, that's how I feel. I feel compelled to grow food or fiber beyond what really seems reasonable. So in any other vocation, if they were dealing with these types of obstacles and stresses, they would decide, you know, I'm going to cut my losses and switch careers. But with farming, and you hear about it in other land-based activities, I've heard it with loggers, with foresters, with fisher people, that that connection is so strong and it's really compelling for people. So I like to talk about it because I do feel like it's important for people to feel affirmed in that. Like, yeah, to outsiders who don't understand agriculture, it might seem crazy to want to keep farming given the type of stress that we're under, especially with the climate change. But this is real, or this agrarian imperative is documented. And thank goodness, right? Thank goodness that people want to keep farming despite how challenging it is. And it kind of gives us all the more reason to be supporting farmers as much as we can. So
SPEAKER_01:tell me, talk a little bit about sort of how you've been sharing support and helping others face this reality of a changing climate and trying to keep farming and the stress that those things bring.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I mean, I think when I started thinking about how to talk to farmers about this, how to lead workshops or classes, you know, farmers are so practical and that's what we love about them is like they want. So they're solution oriented. You know, I've got an issue with my soil. I want to figure out what amendment I need. I want the latest technology on irrigation to conserve water. You know, there's very much a problem solving, pull yourself up by your bootstrap mentality that I love about the farmers I work with. But this is a little bit different. And so it was challenging for me to think about how there's no silver bullet to the emotional feeling, the emotions that we're having around climate grief. So what actually is supportive? And so early in my work, I brought in a clinical psychologist to help me. And she really talked about the importance of naming experiences. So that there's something called like a psycho education, which is just the idea that actually knowing that this phenomenon that you're experiencing is normal. So validating that. and giving people words and names for what they're experiencing. So just so many people, we've surveyed farmers who've attended our workshops, and up to 50% have never heard of these terms, climate stress and grief. And so suddenly they have a name for what they're experiencing. And just to say, you know, 100%, of the farmers that we interviewed this summer, we interviewed 50 farmers, and 100% of them said they are experiencing some level of climate stress and or climate grief. So they're all experiencing it, but they don't have a name for it. So just literally being able to name what you're experiencing is hugely helpful to understand how climate stress and climate grief differs from other types of stress and grief. So there are unique ways that they differ from those griefs and stresses that we talk about more commonly in our lives to understand how they would impact farmers more than other folks. And then to start to, then we go into some experiential parts of climate stress and grief. We also talk about different types of behaviors you might notice because often people won't even be aware that they're experiencing emotions but they might notice that you know they're kind of cutting corners in their farm operation or they like I said with myself like they're isolating from friends they're not they quit the club that they used to be a part of so Getting people to see like, oh, you know, some of these behaviors are, yeah, they're drinking more. Some of those behaviors may actually be a sign that there's underlying stress or grief present that actually needs to be kind of brought up and addressed.
SPEAKER_03:You said earlier that climate stress, climate grief is different than other types of grief. Can you explain a little bit more the difference?
SPEAKER_00:Sure, yeah. So typically, when we think of grief, you know, we think of often someone dying, a pet or a loved one. And those griefs are, you know, they can be terrible. They can be devastating, take a long time to heal from. But they are discreet, right? So typically, it's like your grandfather dies or your dog dies. Climate grief is... ongoing and it's overwhelming. So we've already lost so much. We continue to lose more. We know that there's more to lose in the future. So it's this sort of unending grief without resolution. Many griefs for people, and not in all cases, certainly they're complicated deaths like with suicide or murder or even an accident, where the feelings can be really complicated, but it tends to be a lot of sadness and loss. Whereas climate grief is really complicated and they're terrified for the future. Like, will I even be able to breathe in so many years? What about my kids and grandkids? So there's a ton of fear. There's also guilt. You know, people are like, oh, I want to fly across the country and see my cousin, but my carbon footprint? Or am I doing enough? Should I quit my job and just spend my whole life being an activist for climate? So we're constantly, the society we live in, we're constantly forced to make all these compromises and decisions that we've been told that are going to impact the climate. And then, of course, there's intense sadness. So we hear about the loss of all these species. We see these homes being burned. We see animals suffering through drought and wildfire and floods. So there's just like intense amounts of sadness. So it's a really complicated set of feelings. And that, like I said, in some cases, you can have that kind of suite of emotions with certain types of death. But typically, you know, it would be more of that kind of sadness loss quadrant. Oh, and then the last thing I want to say in terms of how climate grief is different than other grief is that it's considered a disenfranchised grief. So, you know, when we lose a person, there's all kinds of cultural ways, the rituals, you know, we have a memorial or a funeral. People might bring you meals. If you're lucky, you'll have some bereavement leave from your job. So there's lots of ways that we know to practice experiencing that loss that's culturally validated. And then disenfranchised griefs, this could be a miscarriage or a divorce or you move away. And no one really thinks like, oh, there's all these ways to sort of acknowledge that loss of, you know, you're moving away from all your friends. So climate grief is similarly, it's a disenfranchised grief because we don't currently have different ways as a community to validate that experience. So people are tending to grieve alone in isolation rather than, you know, out in the community where they can be supported. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Are there lessons from that that you bring into your workshops? Is there sort of a way to make this more culturally accepted or practiced?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, some of the work that we do in our longer workshops, we sometimes will have everybody in the room share one thing that they've lost to climate change. or something that they've noticed change in the landscape that's affected them personally. And we do that as kind of a group process of sharing. And it's really powerful because people will share deeply personal losses. And I think it is another, Stacey, to go back to your question about how it differs, climate grief can be so overwhelming. And we tend to focus on things that like the loss of polar bears or the Great Barrier Reef dying, or even things like looking at LA burn. But we tend to distance ourselves from the really personal losses that we're experiencing ourselves because they're so painful. So we actually get people to name those things. And it is a type of ritual. And so people are sharing these with each other And it's really profound. You know, people will cry, people will express anger. But just for example, you know, we've had farmers talk about the fact that, you know, they no longer see the same number of pollinators on their crops. So they no longer see bumblebees in their fields. Someone talked about the fact that their community used to have a Fish Friday. So they'd go fishing at a local lake and then they would all, you know, they cook up the fish and it was this big community event. Well, now the temperature in the lake is too high to sustain life. So there are no longer any fish in that lake. So not only are those fish gone, but that community ritual of getting together and fishing and cooking up the fish together is also gone. That's considered like a secondary or tertiary loss where the fish is the primary loss. So people are talking about these deeply personal losses. And, you know, just that sharing and witnessing process is really profound. And Steve, to answer your question, too, I did want to add that when we moved away from Wolf Gulch, I did hold a ritual, a circle ritual. Tom did not participate just to note so that was not his way of saying goodbye to the land but we've had so many people that have a relationship with Wolf Gulch that you know friends that have just come over the years and have lots of memories and so it was a little bit of like a memorial you know and obviously the land goes on and the land continues but it was an opportunity for us to get together and talk about what we loved about the property memories, what we would miss. And that was really beautiful. And that, that helped me a lot to have that kind of community support and validation for what I was losing by moving.
SPEAKER_03:The ritual you went through was very powerful for you. And it sounds with everybody sharing in the workshops, it's powerful for, for them. I'm curious, how do you feel like they're getting drawn? So when you're trying to bring people to your workshops, how do they recognize that this is a workshop for them? Like what language are you using? And then what are they leaving with?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, great question, Stacey. Yeah. To answer your first question, you know, I know farmers, I've worked with them for 20 years. they're not going to show up to a three-hour workshop on climate emotions. There's no way. And so when I initially had this concept, the idea was to create a 30-minute module that could be embedded in other programming. And so often as an agricultural educator, I'll be putting on or I'll be collaborating on a day-long day long or half day program. And there's, you know, a half hour here or there that we we need some programming. So the idea was to have this be sort of a teaser to give people a name for what they're experiencing. But, you know, not to try to draw people to a workshop specifically on this. And that worked really well. And we did survey everybody. And I think it was 91% of the farmers that attended that little half-hour workshop wanted more. But like you said, they didn't even know they were experiencing climate grief until that 30-minute workshop. So they sort of needed that introduction to the concept before they would want to attend a longer workshop. So we are still, we're only a year and a half into this project. So we're still trying to figure out the best ways to reach farmers. We found that conferences where we can host an hour and a half long session are really popular. And I think, again, that's because people are signed up for an entire conference and then they're going to this one offering. But I think it is hard to attract people to a longer session. So that was to answer that question. The other question is a great one in terms of what people leave with. So we will do that practice of naming what people have lost. And the room tends to feel very heavy and somber at that point. And then we switch to talk about resilience strategies. And we really use a strengths-based approach. I tell the farmers like, You're obviously resilient. You obviously are coping because you're here. You're at this conference. You're at this workshop. You're still farming. You got up out of bed today. And so let's do a skill share. Tell everybody else in the room, what are the practices that you do that help you handle these emotions that are healthy? And it's really beautiful what people share at that point. We frame it as a skill share to encourage people to talk. You can help the other people in this room. But more and more, what I've been reading about is that there is no silver bullet to climate emotions and climate stress. But all of the research shows there are better outcomes when people talk about these feelings. They are more resilient. They are more connected to their community. And interestingly, they're more likely to take action. So they're actually more likely to have agency around making positive changes, whether it's on their farms or in their lives, getting involved rather than doing this kind of numbing out distraction and tuning out to what's happening. So We do that resilience process and it's really wonderful because by the time we leave, people are feeling energized, excited, they're feeling connected to one another. And so, yeah, we try to leave on that positive note. But it's really, I've been noting, I've been making sure that I document all of the resilience strategies that come out of all these workshops. And so I've noticed some trends and they fall roughly into different buckets of resilience strategies. Some are like self-care, like people will meditate or they will make sure they get enough sleep or whatever it is that's kind of around self-care. Some of it is around connecting, so making sure that they're nurturing those relationships, they're having family dinners at least a couple times a week with their kids. Some of it's connecting with nature and animals. Lots of people talk about how going and sitting by a river for a few hours, or not a few hours, not hours, even just sitting by the river for 20 minutes can make them feel kind of restored and connected. We had one farmer who talked about how he makes sure he's got three cats, three barn cats. He pets each of those cats every day for a little while. And that gives him that sense of kind of connection and joy that helps him keep going in the rougher moments. And then you have people talk about taking action. So going to testify or write letters, signing up to be part of an organization that's working on climate change. And then people talk about limiting technology, so making sure they're not inundating themselves with all this terrible news that just makes them feel despairing but isn't actually encouraging them to take any action. So it ends up making them feel more paralyzed than inspired or activated. So we end with that and then encourage people to continue talking about these issues with their neighbors and making sure that they're engaging in these resilience practices. So as I've been reading more and more about climate grief, what I hear is that we have these states of distress. So when we're watching the news about LA or we're seeing our landscape change or whatever it is, we feel these difficult emotions. And so In order to manage that, we actually have to be also seeking out these states of resilience, which I think of as joy, connection, and agency. And so, you know, figuring out for yourself, what are the activities that bring that sense? Because we're going to need that more and more so that we can toggle back and forth between the states of distress and the states of resilience. So
SPEAKER_01:just, I mean, That was going to be my last question was like, what can people do? And I love that you went through all those different buckets of resilient kind of behaviors. If somebody is listening to this and have come across this for the first time and has recognized, oh my gosh, that's what I'm feeling. What's one thing they can do and one place they can go to help start to understand it and start to feel better or connect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, there's lots of great organizations and they are listed on our website. So rather than try to name them here, you could go to our website and look under resources. You know, some people aren't group people. Like I said, Tom doesn't want to talk to anybody about his feelings except maybe me. So But the research, again, does show that actually talking about these emotions in groups is even more beneficial than one-on-one therapy. So there is something about the group model that I think can be really useful to a lot of people. And more and more, there are these groups. They're called climate cafes. You can find them on Zoom or in your community. But having a chance to just be in a space where you can feel like it's important to talk about these issues time and again I hear people say I don't I have all these feelings but I don't want to talk to my friends I don't want to talk at a party or a potluck about these feelings because no one wants to hear it it's too depressing and so finding a space or maybe it's you know a friend or a group of friends that you feel safe talking about with this with that aren't going to shut you down or get really you know emotionally triggered So you can talk about your feelings. So it's first really acknowledging the feelings, getting to know them better. We have this great resource called the Climate Wheel, a climate emotions wheel, which is also on our website. And it's interesting. We have people look. There's four quadrants. There's fear, sadness, anger, and hope, actually, a positive one. But you can start to like, see, where do you fall on this climate emotions wheel? Do you tend to feel more fear? Do you tend to feel more anger? So getting to be familiar with some of your emotions is actually helpful. Just being able to name the feelings. And then so there's like really giving yourself some space to feel these feelings, validating the feelings. Of course, you feel grief. Of course, you feel anger. Like, That's an appropriate response to what's happening. There is nothing pathological about experiencing climate stress and grief. We are living in a really difficult time where we're facing major losses that really didn't need to happen. So these emotions are completely valid. So giving yourself space to feel them and then, yeah, identifying like, you know, what are the activities that that make me feel joy, that make me feel connected, that make me feel like I'm ready to do something and then seeking those out and cultivating those in your life. So in broad strokes, those are kind of the two steps I would say that people, you know, experiencing this and wanting to address it in their lives should take or could take. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, Mon. Yeah. You referenced your website a couple of times. We'll definitely put it in the notes and all the social media promo and stuff, but do you want to say what your website is?
SPEAKER_00:It's an ugly website name, but perhaps easier for listeners is if you just Google Oregon State University climate grief, it comes right up.
SPEAKER_02:Perfect.
SPEAKER_00:That's great.
SPEAKER_03:Well, thank you, Maude. This was... Yeah, this is an intense one. It's great work, but you also have a lot of really good tips for people, ideas for people on how to work with this, how to identify it and work with this. So thank you. Thank
SPEAKER_00:you so much for having me. Appreciate
SPEAKER_02:it.
UNKNOWN:Thanks.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for listening to Fresh Growth. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information on Western SARE Grounds and our learning resources, visit westernsare.org.
